Bill Maher vs Poptart

[Van]

Just watched Religulous and I swear to <I'm not sure who> that the entire time I was watching that thing I was thinking of our buddy Poptart.

Now, most of the people Maher skewers in this flick are just barely beyond being functionally retarded, but then that's how most deeply religious people are once they're pressed to explain their beliefs.

Poptart, he's not a fucking moron. He's (otherwise) a bright guy.

That would be a debate I'd enjoy, Maher vs Poptart.

Hell, I'm agnostic, so I don't know dick about having Big Picture answers. I just know lunacy when I see it and the bible is a seed of lunacy. Its practitioners and abusers sowed that seed into a worldwide conflagration of braindeadedness that's truly hard to fathom once you truly look at what billions of people have come to believe.

It's almost a contest of the absurd, trying to decide which organized religion is based on the more preposterous beliefs. Every time I think nothing could be more bat shit crazy than the Mormon religion here comes Scientology to top it. Think Judaism is just comical in its Orthodox beliefs? Check out some of the truly insane things Islam believes. When you're certain nothing could be crazier than Islam refer back to fundamentalist bible thumpers who take every word literally of what was obviously intended to be nothing more than a children's fable, written by and for truly ignorant people who believed the world was flat and giant man eating sea creatures roamed the seven seas.

I'm quite often embarrassed by mankind. I think that's a well known thing around here. Lowest common denominator culture, our incredibly ineffectual governmental system, college football's singular ability to make a mockery of everything...you name it, I'm embarrassed about it.

Nothing comes close though to religion. Nothing is as patently embarrassing as hearing a grown man speak his heart felt devotion to something more absurd than m2's self penned memoirs...

[PSUFAN]

Just yesterday the Pittsburgh School Board voted to drop the abstinence-only sex education plank of the Platform. What kind of nut job actually think that shrouding kids in ignorance will keep them from making foolish decisions with their genitals? Probably the same nut jobs that walked around today with some fucking ash smeared on their foreheads...

[Van]

Hey, mang, growing up I always dug how the sluttiest chicks who did the filthiest things were always the ones who wore the most crosses.

-Fan of latina catholic chicks

[H4ever]

Hey, mang, growing up I always dug how the sluttiest chicks who did the filthiest things were always the ones who wore the most crosses.

-Fan of latina catholic chicks

Word....something about that aztec or mayan blood in those mestizos drives them to fuck like rabbits. That and being devout catholics might explain having 8 kids when you make 4k a year in Mexico and 30k tops working shit jobs here in the U.S.

[War Wagon]

Van, is it just coincidence you posted this on Ash Wednesday?

'tart would destroy that cunt Maher, btw.

[Van]

WW, yes, it is coincidence. I had no idea.

Oh, and no, if Pop attempted to argue the literalist point of view he'd get destroyed, simply because that point of view is indefensible. He might manage alright if he just argued for basic faith based tenets of Christianity. If he attempted to argue that just because it's written in the bible it's literally true that talking snakes and 900 year old people existed in a world where dinosaurs roamed the earth alongside humans, well, he'd get ruined.

[Atomic Punk]

Faith is knowledge and experience. poptart will agree with that. People find it at different stages of life or they don't at all. However, even a communist heathen that repents and accepts Jesus while hanging on a cross gets a pass. Let it go pal.

[Van]

AP, you couldn't be more wrong. Faith is the opposite of knowledge and experience. Faith is believing in something despite a lack of knowledge or experience. In the case of the christian fundamentalist faith is in lieu of knowedge or experience. It requires taking what you know and what you've experienced and flushing it down the drain, in lieu of an impossible fable your knowledge and experience would otherwise tell you to condemn as insulting.

[Tom In VA]

History trumps all. Drags poptart in for the win and buries Maher in his own bullshit.

[Van]

Unfortunately, history trumps the bible, repeatedly.

[Atomic Punk]

AP, you couldn't be more wrong. Faith is the opposite of knowledge and experience. Faith is believing in something despite a lack of knowledge or experience.

So you are agnostic AND defining what faith is from your point of view? Well, Unga... gunga baloonga.... I think that's what the Llama told me. So I got that going for me... which is nice...

[Tom In VA]

Unfortunately, history trumps the bible, repeatedly.

In what sense ? You and I wouldn't be discussing this if it wasn't for ... what is, what was, and what will always be.

[Van]

AP, you couldn't be more wrong. Faith is the opposite of knowledge and experience. Faith is believing in something despite a lack of knowledge or experience.

So you are agnostic AND defining what faith is from your point of view? Well, Unga... gunga baloonga.... I think that's what the Llama told me. So I got that going for me... which is nice...

Yes, I'm agnostic and my definition of faith isn't just from my point of view. It's just the definition of faith: believing in something for which there is no proof.

An atheist's beliefs are every bit as faith based as a devoutly religious person's. They both believe in something about which they have zero knowledge or experience.

Your definition of faith remains 100% wrong.

[Van]

Unfortunately, history trumps the bible, repeatedly.

In what sense ? You and I wouldn't be discussing this if it wasn't for ... what is, what was, and what will always be.

In the sense that history shows that much of what is recorded in the bible is pure nonsense. It's pure fable, not history.

[Atomic Punk]

An atheist's beliefs are every bit as faith based as a devoutly religious person's. They both believe in something about which they have zero knowledge or experience.

Your definition of faith remains 100% wrong.

Well, I don't give a shit what you believe and won't try to argue one way or another. I'm cool with what I believe despite my transgressions and it's okay to get clobbered on a smack board.

However, logically... you are saying my definition of faith is 100% wrong when you claim to be agnostic. Tell me, what is the difference between agnostics and atheists? If you know, then you just KYOA.

"What floats?" "Very small rocks!"

[Tom In VA]

Unfortunately, history trumps the bible, repeatedly.

In what sense ? You and I wouldn't be discussing this if it wasn't for ... what is, what was, and what will always be.

In the sense that history shows that much of what is recorded in the bible is pure nonsense. It's pure fable, not history.

Perhaps it is pure fable. Reading the bible today is not unlike a "Noah" reading the technical specifications for a Dell Blade Server and how to install VMWare ESX on it. Within the context of the time in which is was written, it was the best way the authors could express what they observed. Western Civilization, the lineage from Mesopotamia, through the biblical times, the Roman Empire, Christendom, The Dark Ages, all the way up to the obliteration of the Native Americans on this continent through today ... has been influenced and touched by that fable. That "fable", has been an antagonist and protagonist in the evolution of humanity. The "Yin and Yang" of East vs. West has shaped so much of our world today it's hard to say that their fables and our fables haven't had a profound impact on life as we know it today.

The cynicism and intellectual masturbation of the likes of Maher will always be drowned out by the power of those fables.

When Maher and his ilk have the nuts to go after Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and the polytheistic pagan rituals, then "wake me up". Until then, he and everyone else who solely target Christianity as "fable" bore the fuck out of me.

[Tom In VA]

Tell me, what is the difference between agnostics and atheists?

Agnostics - as the word suggests - don't know. Don't know what to believe. I count myself as an agnostic. I believe, but I do not know what or whom to believe.

But I'm willing to believe poptart and the inner strength and peace I've seen that "fable" give to people in tough situations more than the likes of Maher who stew in their own misery, self-pity, and woe. Maher is a tortured soul making money off other tortured souls - not unlike - that which he criticizes. Maher is no different than that which he criticizes. He claims knowledge he does not have and SELLS IT.

[Van]

AP, try harder. You either don't know what you're talking about or you're simply not following along...

-Your definition of faith is 100% wrong. You think faith can be gained through knowledge and experience when in fact the definition of faith is the exact opposite. It's a belief (not knowledge, just a belief) in something about which you have no proof. Minus proof, you have neither knowledge nor experience, you only have belief.

-Atheism is faith based, same as being a devoutly religious person is faith based. They both require faith. They both require a belief in something unprovable and therefore unknowable. A religious person has no knowledge or experience of god's existence and an atheist has no knowledge or proof of the lack of god's existence. They both just believe, based wholly on faith.

-Agnostism means that one requires proof, otherwise one doesn't know. An agnostic is just as dubious of either an atheist or a thumper since both types believe in something for which they have can never have proof. An agnostic simply doesn't know, and he freely admits it, and along with this admitted lack of knowledge comes a lack of faith, in either direction.

So, whether my beliefs mirror yours has no bearing on your definition of faith. Faith is an absolute concept, with an absolute definition. It crosses all religions and all beliefs. You simply don't know what the word means, apparently. I'm just the person telling you what the word means, since you seem to have its meaning completely wrong.

[War Wagon]

Faith is the evidence of things unseen while prayer is a private, personal manifestation of said faith. Don't tell me you've never prayed, Van.

As for Religulous and Maher... why is it cunts like that feel so compelled to attack Christianity or any religion? Are they so freaking threatened by someone elses beliefs it just ruins their day? I care not what atheists or agnostics don't believe.

Don't like the King James Bible? Fine, don't read it. Otherwise, go play footsies with Felix in the theology forum.

[Van]

But I'm willing to believe poptart and the inner strength and peace I've seen that "fable" give to people in tough situations more than the likes of Maher who stew in their own misery, self-pity, and woe. Maher is a tortured soul making money off other tortured souls - not unlike - that which he criticizes. Maher is no different than that which he criticizes. He claims knowledge he does not have and SELLS IT.

Worthless pablum. Nobody's talking about quotients of "inner strength."

How the fuck do you know Maher is a tortured soul? Dude seems very functional and pretty damn happy to me. Why wouldn't he be? He's made millions doing the thing he loves. He's also secure enough in his beliefs (though he's agnostic) to go out there and subject himself to ridicule.

Regardless, who cares? The point is the validity of his questioning of organized religions, including fundamental christianity. His observations and conclusions are spot on. Trying to shoot the messenger won't change the correctness of his message.

[poptart]

I don't think I would "argue" with Bill Maher, Van.

I would have a discussion with him, though.
I'd be glad to, very.

1Corinthinans 12:3 says this ...

~ no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. ~

And likewise in Matthew 16, when Peter was the first to realize that Jesus is the Christ, Jesus told him that flesh and blood had not revealed that truth to him, but that GOD (the Holy Ghost) had revealed it to him.

Unless the Holy Spirit moves a person to have the realization that Jesus is the Christ, they won't have it.

And no manner of words or "logic" will move them.

Flesh and blood won't work to convince them.
All of that comes from Adam, which is in a state ruin.
This is the state of all people.

Salvation is entirely God's work.

In speaking to Maher, I would testify to Christ, that's about it.

[Van]

Faith is the evidence of things unseen while prayer is a private, personal manifestation of said faith. Don't tell me you've never prayed, Van.

I probably did, when I was younger. I got no response. That was that, for me.

While I was still in high school (a Catholic school, mind you) I figured out that organized religion was a horrible thing. No other force on earth causes more people worldwide to park their brains and turn over both their souls and their futures to self serving charlatans.

As for Religulous and Maher... why is it cunts like that feel so compelled to attack Christianity or any religion? Are they so freaking threatened by someone elses beliefs it just ruins their day? I care not what atheists or agnostics don't believe.

Don't like the King James Bible? Fine, don't read it. Otherwise, go play footsies with Felix in the theology forum.

Right, gotcha. Nobody should ever take a stance on anything. Nobody should ever speak up about any issue...especially comedians.

Jesus, WW, that's one boneheaded take.

Besides, organized religion is one of the two or three most virulent plagues to ever attack mankind. It's a subject well worth discussing. It's a far more important subject than any other issue facing mankind.

But yeah, people shouldn't talk about it. Nobody ought to ever point out how our entire species has diminished themselves because of it, over thousands of years. We ought to just keep on swimming along in a sea of ignorant bliss, free from anybody ever pointing out that the emperor has no clothes...

[GOSD]

Tell me, what is the difference between agnostics and atheists?

Agnostics - as the word suggests - don't know. Don't know what to believe. I count myself as an agnostic. I believe, but I do not know what or whom to believe.

But I'm willing to believe poptart and the inner strength and peace I've seen that "fable" give to people in tough situations more than the likes of Maher who stew in their own misery, self-pity, and woe. Maher is a tortured soul making money off other tortured souls - not unlike - that which he criticizes. Maher is no different than that which he criticizes. He claims knowledge he does not have and SELLS IT.

It's funny how those that stew in their own self pity and woe turn to religion so they no longer have to make others miserable whining about how their life is a wreck. They then in turn try and make everyone else miserable by pushing their gospel on others trying to save those they believe are headed towards fire and brimstone.

Now, not all people of religion are like this, but I see to many dopers and utterly miserable people from high school that turned to a life of religion to help them cope with mixing pills and alcohol or being a slut when they were younger. Them being saved and having to save everyone else generally follows a mass hysteria of having to save the world to where they use their power to vote to spread this garbage. That package then gets delivered with other shit eating propaganda such as the Republican Party. I used to be a Republican, but wrapping themselves in this complete fucking nonsense has turned ne against them, to a point I druel at the possiblities of that party collapsing under it's own ignorance.

Religion has it's usefulness. It's usefulness is the equivelant of the psychiatric profession. I'd rather have someone go to a priest and discuss their life problems with them then paying a psychologist, but at the same time the whole mess of the "I'm miserable help me" fucking nonsense is a huge contributor to making our nation a nation of fat pussies sitting in front of the television doped up on Prozac etc, because everyone is telling them how they are supposed to live. That extends over to the collapse of our economy also with everyone believing they had to own the biggest SUV or the nicest house despite they couldn't afford it.

Why is it generally those that are religious are the wealthiest? Didn't the bible state otherwise? I'd safely bet it's because the stupidity of the masses is leading a culture of over indulgence and over estimation of self worth that has drove them to live the lifestyles they live.

Nice fucking mess you got here!

[Van]

Poptart, the first thing you have to realize when discussing the bible to a non believer is that a thumper cannot attempt to effectively argue his case by quoting the source of his beliefs. Quoting the bible serves no purpose, unless one is merely preaching to the choir.

The bible is a flawed and wildly contradictory comic book. It's so suspect that it causes doubt; it doesn't remove it.

The words of Mark or Matthew matter not. What's recounted in Corinthians matters not. They're what are precisely in question. Quoting them only brings about more questions.

You say no amount of "logic" will move the non believer. That's true, because a thumper brings no amount of logic to the table. They bring blind faith to something as far fetched as the Easter Bunny, and then they smugly deride people for not sharing their faith.

The minute you mention Adam the discussion must end, unless you're merely preaching to the choir. No sane person will entertain any discussion which involves any attempt of validation of the book of Genesis. If one attempts to argue Genesis or Santa Claus in literal terms they are rightly labeled a kook. Such a person forfeits the right to be taken seriously in any adult conversation.

[Van]

Why is it generally those that are religious are the wealthiest?

That couldn't be more wrong. If that were true I'd have much less of a problem with organized religion.

Instead, nope, by and large and by a wide margin it's the absolute destitute who are this planet's most devoutly religious. That's precisely why they're this planet's most destitute.

In any society the poorer people are more religious and the wealthier people are more educated and less religious. The wealthiest nations on earth are the least religious and the most fucktastically poor nations are overrun with barbaric religions and people who make no effort whatsoever to better themselves because their religious leaders dictate their priorities for them.

Now, sure, at the top of each religious order you'll find wealth. The religious masses may be dirt poor but the people who pull the purse strings for any given religion are often remarkably wealthy.

Imagine that.

[GOSD]

Why is it generally those that are religious are the wealthiest?

That couldn't be more wrong. If that were true I'd have much less of a problem with organized religion.

Instead, nope, by and large and by a wide margin it's the absolute destitute who are this planet's most devoutly religious. That's precisely why they're this planet's most destitute.

In any society the pooerer people are more religious and the wealthier people are more educated and less religious. The welathiest nations on earth are the least religious and the most fucktastically poor nations are overrun with barbaric religions and people who make no effort whatsoever to better themselves because their religion dictates their priorities for them.

Now, at the top of each religious order, sure, you'll find wealth. The people who pull the purse strings for any given religion are often remarkably wealthy.

Imagine that.

True. In other countries the uneducated poor are deeply religious enough to try and kill us for it and do consider us godless. Most that do make good money in this country will bullshit those that believe and pretend to believe, but at the same time those that are religious do stick together in the workplace like a frat. In my personal experience it has always been the religious people that I've seen competing with the joneses.

[Van]

Poor people need religion, just to make it through the day. Rich people don't. Rich people feed off education, not religion. Rich people rely on religion to keep poor people content with being poor.

Christ had to preach the holiness of being dirt poor. What else did he have to offer? He was dirt poor. His followers were used to being dirt poor. They didn't mind that Christ's company could only offer up a fucked up benefits package and an overall compensation package that was for shit.

"What? We get all our bennies AFTER we die?"

"Dude, look at you. You don't have dick now, so what's the difference? At least we're offering you a little sum'n sum'n for later. We have a killer retirement program."

"Whatever. Fine. Will you at least make sure that Magdalene slut will be at the X-Mas party?"

"Yeah, she'll be there."

"Cool. I'm sick of these fags. Sign me up..."

[Atomic Punk]

Van, don't ever argue with indyclown... pure toilet waste and nobody including the worst of the worst here would speak kindly of that steaming coil of shit. Pickle may be slightly worse but that's subjective.

Anyway, it is better for you to admit you're "agnostic," and not state you are 100% sure about anything. Hope that helps, but I doubt you are receptive to teaching. If you had critical thinking abilities on a subject then we could argue further.

[velocet]

The lesser reason appear the better, Maher tries to make.

Difficult to hide malfeasance of non-argument, for a twisted retard like him, it is.

To cite as good encapsulation of anti-religious thinking this flick, guess again.






velocet

[Van]

AP, let's try that one again.

I'm agnostic. I don't know if god exits or if Jesus was divine but I don't believe snakes ever talked and I don't believe one guy and his rib managed to spawn Keira Knightly, you, Margaret Cho and Shaquille O'Neal.

You're a Believer. Apparently you do believe in those things, as well as the Tooth Fairy.

I know what "faith" actually means. You, apparently, don't.

So, what you're saying is we can't discuss this because I'm the one who lacks critical thinking abilities? Critical thinking smack, from the guy who took that pic, which ended up on this board? Critical thinking smack, from you? Is that what I'm hearing?

Btw, where did Indy make an appearance in this thread? Who are you talking about?

[Van]

velo, I don't think anybody would ever try to say Maher's film is the last word on the subject but it certainly did bring up many valid concerns.

Again, gotta differentiate between the message and the messenger.

[Atomic Punk]

AP, let's try that one again.

I'm agnostic. I don't know if god exits or if Jesus was divine but I don't believe snakes ever talked and I don't believe one guy and his rib managed to spawn Keira Knightly, you, Margaret Cho and Shaquille O'Neal.

Yet you are 100% sure. You just KYOA... again. Do I need to go legal like that midget douchebag with a lisp and C&P from the above? What is wrong with you anyway?

You're a Believer. Apparently you do believe in those things, as well as the Tooth Fairy.

Yeah well... I'll bet you melt and and give a panty reference later in this thread.

I know what "faith" actually means. You, apparently, don't.

Depends on which side of Highway 101 you are talking about and if you are using a magnetic compass or a true compass when you get technical with the mental stalwart m2. Oh, check my spelling... not in the mood.

So, what you're saying is we can't discuss this because I'm the one who lacks critical thinking abilities? Critical thinking smack, from the guy who took that pic, which ended up on this board? Critical thinking smack, from you? Is that what I'm hearing?

You lack integrity and are using a bad deal from my past to make your current point. Keep swinging A-Rod.

Btw, where did Indy make an appearance in this thread? Who are you talking about?

Well, since you have "critical thinking" skills and all... can you scroll up and see the new indyclown or do you need help?

This coming from a moron that thinks Stevie Vai is straight.

[velocet]

Twisted, retarded fucking asshole can be counted upon to produce a message that is full of shit. Eternal truths of Ultimate reality are not likely coming from the mind of some demented partisan hack. But more importantly:


The "don't kill the messenger" admonition doesn't wash because Good Bill Cunting is more than just an errand boy. He's the author of that wreck of propaganda.

Now, since you decided to insult me with that dismally off base condescending fucking nonsense, I guess you want the rest of this to proceed pretty much on the brutal side.

Ok.


I'll be sure to have a lot of fun with such a tilt, since this is an encounter with someone either blind or fucking stupid enough to defend such a searingly bad piece of shit like religulous.

A dishonest waste of film that from go is presented as a documentary... which it isn't, it's an op-ed.

A gawdawful waste of time that featured fallaciousness. Just one case in point is the scene where he acts like a crazy man yelling the tenets of scientology on the street.

It's called Poisoning the Well.


Go look it up and come on back and I'll tell you some more things you can learn.


The production is fucking rife with material to pick apart in this manner. Either Maher doesn't care about the problems or he thinks everyone is too stupid to pick 'em out or HE and his toadies are too stupid to know what they've done.

But go ahead, flail away you fucking idiot.





velocet

[Van]

AP, let's try that one again.

I'm agnostic. I don't know if god exits or if Jesus was divine but I don't believe snakes ever talked and I don't believe one guy and his rib managed to spawn Keira Knightly, you, Margaret Cho and Shaquille O'Neal.

Yet you are 100% sure.

That snakes never spoke and that all of mankind wasn't created by Adam and his one rib in some fictional paradise?

Yes, I am sure. Aren't you? If you're not, ie, if you actually buy that nonsense then you're dumber than dirt.

You just KYOA... again. Do I need to go legal like that midget douchebag with a lisp and C&P from the above?

Please do. You'll do equally well, no doubt. Please make sure to include the part where I define my agnosticism by saying I don't know the truth about god and the divinity of Christ. See, that's where my agnosticism comes in. Agnosticism doesn't mean I'm not sure of anything at all, in the whole wide world.

Agnosticism still allows one to be certain of basic truths. I know snakes can't talk, for instance. I know men can't live 900 years. I know Adam can't populate the entire planet by himself.

I just don't know the most important divinity answers. And neither do you. I just admit it.

What is wrong with you anyway?

Nothing. Why is such easy shit proving so difficult for you to grasp? Have you literally never heard of agnosticsm before tonight, or what?? How in the fuck are you still dicking this up??

You're a Believer. Apparently you do believe in those things, as well as the Tooth Fairy.

Yeah well... I'll bet you melt and and give a panty reference later in this thread.

1-Merely mentioning what YOU did in the context of a discussion about critical thinking is not melting, dumbass. You don't get to say everyone is melting any time an AP reference comes up. Melting requires a whole lot more than that.

Accusing every last person who mentions Panty Gate of melting? That's called spinning, AP.

2-Reading my post first and then predicting what it'll say doesn't exactly make you Nostradumbass. Expecting anyone to EVER not include a reference to that pic when the author of that pic is questioning their critical thinking ability is just incredible.

3-Professing a belief in talking snakes and arcs containing two of every animal on planet earth while questioning someone else's critical thinking is also fairly incredible. In fact that one tops the list.

So, what you're saying is we can't discuss this because I'm the one who lacks critical thinking abilities? Critical thinking smack, from the guy who took that pic, which ended up on this board? Critical thinking smack, from you? Is that what I'm hearing?

You lack integrity and are using a bad deal from my past to make your current point. Keep swinging A-Rod.

Okay, so now we can add "integrity" to "faith" on our list of words whose meaning eludes AP.

AP, discussing your lack of critical thinking and citing evidence of it is in no way indicative of a lack of integrity. Had Panty Gate been the only thing I mentioned, you might have a point. You'd still lose, because that was a colossally stupid thing to do, but unfortunately for you I also pointed out other examples of gaps in your critical thinking. Panty Gate was just the capper.

You don't get to use Panty Gate to play the martyr, AP. Just wear it, take your lumps when it comes up and otherwise completely STFU about it. NEVER try to use it for "meltage" spin.

Btw, where did Indy make an appearance in this thread? Who are you talking about?

Well, since you have "critical thinking" skills and all... can you scroll up and see the new indyclown or do you need help?

Well, unless GOSD is Indy then nope, I haven't seen an Indy appearance yet in this thread. If GOSD is Indy then so be it. I don't try to keep track of multiple nics. I don't care.

This coming from a moron that thinks Stevie Vai is straight.

Would this be another shining example of your critical thinking abilities? Why don't you complete the Idiocy Trifecta with some more blather about how your drunken stumblebum hero can actually tie Vai's shoe laces as a guitarist. You may as well get every last fucking thing wrong, in one fell swoop.

[GOSD]

AP, let's try that one again.

I'm agnostic. I don't know if god exits or if Jesus was divine but I don't believe snakes ever talked and I don't believe one guy and his rib managed to spawn Keira Knightly, you, Margaret Cho and Shaquille O'Neal.

Yet you are 100% sure. You just KYOA... again. Do I need to go legal like that midget douchebag with a lisp and C&P from the above? What is wrong with you anyway?

You're a Believer. Apparently you do believe in those things, as well as the Tooth Fairy.

Yeah well... I'll bet you melt and and give a panty reference later in this thread.

I know what "faith" actually means. You, apparently, don't.

Depends on which side of Highway 101 you are talking about and if you are using a magnetic compass or a true compass when you get technical with the mental stalwart m2. Oh, check my spelling... not in the mood.

So, what you're saying is we can't discuss this because I'm the one who lacks critical thinking abilities? Critical thinking smack, from the guy who took that pic, which ended up on this board? Critical thinking smack, from you? Is that what I'm hearing?

You lack integrity and are using a bad deal from my past to make your current point. Keep swinging A-Rod.

Btw, where did Indy make an appearance in this thread? Who are you talking about?

Well, since you have "critical thinking" skills and all... can you scroll up and see the new indyclown or do you need help?

This coming from a moron that thinks Stevie Vai is straight.

I'm infamous for banging a whore on these boards. Your infamous for trying to dress as a whore that Y2K'd fuck in the middle of the night after you had just raided his fridge searching for Snack Packs.

Please post me that link of you "riffing" with the unpacked boxes in the background.

The economy is tough AP. Time for you to invest in one of these as you get older and less telemarketing positions become available.

[poptart]

The bible is a flawed and wildly contradictory comic book.

Wow.

The last time I disagreed with something to this extent, Walt Coleman had just come out of the conspiracy tent and assured us that Tom Brady lost the ball while in the act of a forward pass.


It's really an interesting thing to pause and quietly consider the ways in which the 12 disciples of Jesus died.

Simon Peter - crucified upside down
Andrew - crucified
James - beheaded
John - exiled, died of old age
Matthew - speared to death
Bartholomew - beaten then crucified
Philip - crucified
Thomas - speared to death
Simon - crucified
James - stoned to death
Thaddaeus - stoned to death. (aka Judas son of James)
Judas Iscariot - suicide by hanging

One might try to pass this off by saying, "Well yes, some people have always been willing to go to their death for a cause they totally believe in."

Yes, true.

HOWEVER, that is NOT the case here.

If Jesus was not Christ, these 12 people KNEW that he was not, ... and they accepted these deaths.

It's very fascinating to think of that.

What this means, to one not in denial or lacking in the most fundamental level of common sense, is that they KNEW that Jesus is the promised Christ.

Yes, because they WITNESSED the risen Christ.

They KNEW, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that He is the Christ.

But take it all as you will.



As recorded in Acts, Jesus' last Words -- spoken to the above 12 people.

Acts 1:8
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Despite the MOST harsh persecution one can imagine, these 12 rag-tag nobodies, "zero's" even, began a spiritual movement which has, in fact, done just what was promised by Jesus Christ in his very last Words.

[Van]

Twisted, retarded fucking asshole can be counted upon to produce a message that is full of shit. Eternal truths of Ultimate reality are not likely coming from the mind of some demented partisan hack.

Oh, and the Catholic church hasn't long been comprised of demented partisan hacks? The Ayatollahs are solidly neutral, bi-partisan thinkers? John Smith, was he the Lady Liberty of well reasoned impartiality?

These are the people and the institutions we should go to as bastions of Eternal Truths Of Ultimate Reality?

Face it, velo. Both sides are comprised of partisan hacks. One side at least has some basic laws of physics on its side. I'll let you sort out which side is which.

And for the record, Maher isn't atheist anyway. He shoots down the obvious brainfarts of various organized religions but he remains an avowed agnostic about the Big Picture questions.

But more importantly:

The "don't kill the messenger" admonition doesn't wash because Good Bill Cunting is more than just an errand boy. He's the author of that wreck of propaganda.

Of the movie, sure. Of the basic message in the movie? Hardly. He's merely the latest in a long line of people fostering a similar message.

I merely brought him up because I happened to see the movie today. Had I watched W. today I probably would've brought that up instead. Similarly, the fact that Oliver Stone made a damning film about George W. hardly makes Stone unique in his message.

Attack what Maher said in his film. Pick it apart. That's fine. That's excellent, actually. That's the basis of agnosticism.

Attacking his entire message merely because he delivered it, and it contains some fallacies? That's just stupid. If that's the case then let's just dump organized religion right now, in its entirety.

Now, since you decided to insult me with that dismally off base condescending fucking nonsense, I guess you want the rest of this to proceed pretty much on the brutal side.

No, I didn't, and no, I don't. I'd expect better from you, at least.

When I wish to insult someone I'm pretty clear about it. When I wish to be condescending...ditto. I did neither with you.

I'll be sure to have a lot of fun with such a tilt, since this is an encounter with someone either blind or fucking stupid enough to defend such a searingly bad piece of shit like religulous.

I didn't defend the movie, at least not in its entirety. I agreed with its basic premise of questioning the world's organized religions. Anybody who doesnt question such things, well, they're idiots. Even Believers owe it to their Faith to constantly question their teachings, their mesengers and their whole spiritual universe.

It's supposed to be a never ending quest. That's why it's called "practicing one's religion." The quest for knowledge and understanding doesn't end at the moment one declares their Faith. The Christian church and its endless spin offs and variations is well proof of this.

There's nothing wrong with dropping the dead weight tenets carried by organized religions. They change their "facts" and their beliefs and their teachings all the time. Calling these people out on their idiocies is exactly what they sometimes need.

A dishonest waste of film that from go is presented as a documentary... which it isn't, it's an op-ed.

Agreed. It's more op-ed than documentary. The message and intent was clear from the beginning and he merely used a documentary style to hammer home his message.

The overall message still carried some validity. Many of the questions he raised need to be raised.

A gawdawful waste of time that featured fallaciousness. Just one case in point is the scene where he acts like a crazy man yelling the tenets of scientology on the street.

Now you're being disingenuous. You know that particular scene was purely intentional parody. He was merely aping the other street barkers shown in the previous couple minutes of the same scene. He was being intentionally absurd.

The bit where at the conclusion of his rant he graciously accepted the crown of balloons from a bemused onlooker should've made his intent for that scene pretty clear.

It's called Poisoning the Well.

Agreed. He was intentionally blatant about doing it, too.

The production is fucking rife with material to pick apart in this manner. Either Maher doesn't care about the problems or he thinks everyone is too stupid to pick 'em out or HE and his toadies are too stupid to know what they've done.

Picking apart the material is excellent. He's a fucking comic, for gawd's sake. He wouldn't pretend to be the last word on the topic.

His basic gist though is worth discussing, regardless of any factual errors in his movie and regardless of the fact that he's the reason we're discussing this right now. He's hardly the first person to misrepresent something pertaining to religion. Religious folks do it too, often as rote procedure.

Organized religion is now and has always been severely dimwitted and highly fucked up...and 100% man made. It deserves far more critical scrutiny than it's received. It's mankind's nightmare. That's the basic message of his movie and on that count he's hardly the first author of such a basic message but he is correct in his basic message.

Arguing the details is a good thing but discussing the basic message is the most necessary thing. By and large organized religion deserves severe scrutiny, circumspection and condemnation.

[Van]

Pop, the purple Nike crowd also died for their beliefs. So did the Jim Jones crowd. So have countless other human sheep. Big deal. All it proves is their devotion. It doesn't even begin to prove the truth of their beliefs.

Besides, again, you can't prove the truth of the bible by quoting the bible. This thing is a man made concoction written back when people firmly believed the craziest shit imaginable. Nobody ever saw anything. Everything is a series of hand me down stories and oral traditions, and we all know how stories change when passed down the line from one person to the next.

The bottom line is look what the damn thing actually says. Short of disconnecting one's brain there's no way to take the thing seriously, not in its entirety. The Old Testament is just ludicrous and it can't be dismissed as merely being the Old Testament. It counts. It's part of the bible, fundies quote it to prove their points and it's supposed to be every bit as valid and meaningful as the NT.

It's a series of fables. Much of the shit never happened and yet it makes up the backbone belief system of the planet's majority religion.

Thats a problem.

[poptart]

Pop, the purple Nike crowd also died for their beliefs. So did the Jim Jones crowd. So have countless other human sheep. Big deal. All it proves is their devotion. It doesn't even begin to prove the truth of their beliefs.

I'll post again what I said in my previous post ...


One might try to pass this off (the torturous ways the disciples accepted death) by saying, "Well yes, some people have always been willing to go to their death for a cause they totally believe in."

Yes, true.

HOWEVER, that is NOT the case here.

If Jesus was not Christ, these 12 people KNEW that he was not, ... and they accepted these deaths.

[Van]

When Maher and his ilk have the nuts to go after Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and the polytheistic pagan rituals, then "wake me up". Until then, he and everyone else who solely target Christianity as "fable" bore the fuck out of me.

Tom, I missed this earlier...

To be fair, Maher does in fact go after other religions in the movie. He lets one Orthodox Jew hang himself and he gets so fed up with the guy that he finally walks out on him. He goes after Islam hard too, especially its tendency (in his view) towards violence and outright stupidity. He also goes after the Mormons and Scientology.

Pretty much, he was an equal opportunity offender.

I was surprised he didn't go after the Jehovah's Witnesses.