Barry Bonds...

[Blueblood]

755

[MuchoBulls]

***

[Adelpiero]

what a joke


such a jealous twat, couldn't handle others getting the spotlight, so he shot anything and evrything and rubbed the clear to bulk up and become a 45 year old power hitter.

a 30ish homer guy to 70+. and nefi perez is the one being run through the mill for roids

[RevLimiter]

755*

Fixed.

Funny, A-Rod's going to blow right by ol' Barroid before Dude get's to his 38th Birthday....and do it LEGITIMATELY.

[RadioFan]

***

[PSUFAN]

Not a big Bonds fan - ***

[RadioFan]

Somebody needs to wytch bonds over the figure:

[rozy]

Bigger than the asterisk.

Yet another big moment in Bonds' long career.

Yet another time...his team lost

Bigger than the asterisk. Barry will retire ringless.

[Rich Fader]

Already knew that.

They were seven outs away from winning the Series in Game Six in '02. Seven damn outs. I mean, I was rooting for the Angels and I was sitting there going, "We're screwed." And they couldn't get it done. At least in part because Mr. Warmth there couldn't find the handle on what would have been a fly out.

Barry Bonds is a cancer.

[King Crimson]

Aaron is the guy. Bonds is a clown.

numbers ain't character.

[Ace]

And the only person to greet him at home plate was the batboy, who happens to be his son. By comparison, the whole team greeted ARod. Fuck Bonds

[fix]

And the only person to greet him at home plate was the batboy, who happens to be his son. By comparison, the whole team greeted ARod. Fuck Bonds

Actually if you look at the video, the whole team was on the field to greet him. They were standing off to the side allowing his son to share in the moment with his dad which was a classy move by them.

That said,

Bonds hit the tying homer off a former Giants draft pick who was suspended in 2005 for violating baseball's minor league steroids policy.

:lol:

How fitting is that.

[Kierland]

I have no problem with giving Barry an * if there is also one next to Ruth's name.
Segregation made it possible for Ruth to hit silly numbers, there is no way he would have hit those numbers if there was fair competition, and fair competition is what most people bitch about when they bring up the * argument when talking about Bonds.

But as someone said before A-rod looks to be well on his way to making Bonds 2 and Ruth 4 on the list anyways.

[bbqjones]

my baseball cards are talking to me now.

lots of bonds and only a couply big arods.

you haters are eating @ wendys tonight and im going to the red lobster.

[Kierland]

Are you saying the Negro Leagues were far superior to the American League in the 1920's?

No Sir, only that there were enough good pitchers to drop Ruth's HR numbers. Maybe only by one HR (I would say many more than that), but one is enough to necessitate an *.

[RumpleForeskin]

Taking a page out of Chris Rock's theory, Kierland? Okay. What if there were blacks in baseball back then? I bet I can argue the same point about lineup protection for Ruth. What if the Yankees acquired someone similar to Josh Gibson during the 1920's and you stuck the Babe between him and Gerhig? You don't think there would have been more opportunities for the Babe to hit more homeruns and draw less walks? The argument can work both ways. Also, what if the Babe had the same number of ABs as Aaron or Barry. Dude would be in the 800 HR department...no question.

[Smackie Chan]

Are you saying the Negro Leagues were far superior to the American League in the 1920's?

No Sir, only that there were enough good pitchers to drop Ruth's HR numbers. Maybe only by one HR (I would say many more than that), but one is enough to necessitate an *.

It's not for nothing that Yankee Stadium is referred to as "The House That Ruth Built." The fence at the right field foul pole was 295', and in left it was only 281' (for those times when the Babe was late getting around on the pitch). Of course, the balls were "deader" than they are today, and weren't replaced with every pitch in the dirt or foul ball that stayed out of the stands. There was also Yankee Stadium's "Death Valley," the 490' fence in centerfield. Chances are that Ruth's HR total would have been considerably higher if many of the balls he hit to center were done so with him playing his home games in a park with today's 408' fence in center.

An argument can be made that almost every baseball record deserves an asterisk based on differences in playing conditions over the years. Not sure what those might be in Aaron's case, but I'm sure someone could come up with one (or more).

[Kierland]

Taking a page out of Chris Rock's theory, Kierland?

I think I first heard of it back in the day when Aaron was chasing Ruth and Chris Rock was about 9 years old.
I think your protection argument (which I first heard a quite soon after hearing the Ruth/Segregation theory) is an argument for the * not against it. If you have to say "what if" and "would have been more opportunities" then the water is too muddy anyways and ALL pre-Jackie players should get an *.

[Kierland]

An argument can be made that almost every baseball record deserves an asterisk based on differences in playing conditions over the years. Not sure what those might be in Aaron's case, but I'm sure someone could come up with one (or more).

But what field you play in is always different. Keeping people OFF the field that might blow smoke by you is 'cheating up' your stats as is taking 'roids. This is a thread about the * and I was just putting my 2cents into who should have one.

You're up a bit early for a stoner aren't you. (I know it's not very funny, but I am new to this whole 'have to add a personal dig with every post' stuff. I will try harder in the future.)

[War Wagon]

ALL pre-Jackie players should get an *.

Word.

Cy Young *

Satchell Paige would've pwned.

[Voice of Reason]

But what field you play in is always different. Keeping people OFF the field that might blow smoke by you is 'cheating up' your stats as is taking 'roids. This is a thread about the * and I was just putting my 2cents into who should have one.

And for the last 20 years of baseball, half of the league's been taking roids, or other enhancements.

There are lots of records that should have *'s, if we are going to *ize Bonds, from Gagne, to Clemens, to Bonds.

Personally, I can't get worked up over caring about it. I couldn't care less that Ruth didn't play against Negro leaguers. I couldn't care less that players were simply weaker 40 years ago due to advancement in nutrition, and strength training. I couldn't care less that some of the best pitchers in past eras were admittidly scuffing balls and applying vasoline. I couldn't care less that pitchers in the current era are juiced up like WWF heavyweights, let alone power hitters.

Comparing one era against another is meaningless anyway, in any sport. Jim Brown wouldn't have been able to run over today's defensive linemen, Wilt Chamberlin wouldn't have been able to score 100 against today's centers.

So, the homerun record is now held by a player from the steroid era. Big deal. Its not suprising.

[Smackie Chan]

An argument can be made that almost every baseball record deserves an asterisk based on differences in playing conditions over the years. Not sure what those might be in Aaron's case, but I'm sure someone could come up with one (or more).

But what field you play in is always different. Keeping people OFF the field that might blow smoke by you is 'cheating up' your stats as is taking 'roids. This is a thread about the * and I was just putting my 2cents into who should have one.

It seems we're in violent agreement. The point I tried to make is that some conditions contributed to Ruth's hitting more HRs than perhaps he "should have," while others kept him from hitting more than he did.

You're up a bit early for a stoner aren't you.

If I were still one (or at least at the same level I used to be), this might be true. But another element of this board is that once a reputation or label is applied, it's there forever. I've learned to live with it.

I know it's not very funny

So do the rest of us. Or most, anyway.

I am new to this whole 'have to add a personal dig with every post' stuff. I will try harder in the future.

No points are awarded for effort. We're results-oriented.

[Risa]

Taking a page out of Chris Rock's theory, Kierland?

That was some fucked up, shit, wasn't it? Wonder where all the Chris Rock lovers are, on that one?

America Online: Chris Rock keeps it real about Barry Bonds

Bob Costas: Is race irrelevant?

Chris Rock: Ty Cobb's numbers are bullshit and Babe Ruth's numbers are bullshit.

Bob Costas: Because of segregation –

Chris Rock: Because they didn't play against black players. It's like saying I won the New York City Marathon but no Kenyans ran that year. Babe Ruth has 714 Affirmative Action home runs.

http://www.racewire.org/archives/2007/0 ... ion_1.html

The better part of Costas Now however, was Chris Rock's hilarious rip on Babe Ruth versus Satchel Paige, a Black ball player. One of his best lines came when Bob Costas asked about why Rock is not a fan of Babe Ruth:

"It's not that I don't like Babe Ruth, I just don't think he was the best of his time. Satchel Paige was striking people out from his wheel chair at age 63! And he was tenth best. There were nine Negro players better than him!"

"It's almost like saying - I won the New York City Marathon this year - but no Kenyans ran!"

"It's not a sport until brothers show up - it's just a game."

To view the Costas Now show, check the HBO listings in your area.

Meanwhile, here's a clip of Chris Rock laying into the Barry Bonds issue on the Late Show with David Letterman. "The government 'ain't trying to get Osama Bin Laden," Rock said. "They trying to get Barry Bonds."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdiS91OguJc

Anybody got the other clips?

[Risa]

Okay. What if there were blacks in baseball back then? I bet I can argue the same point about lineup protection for Ruth. What if the Yankees acquired someone similar to Josh Gibson during the 1920's and you stuck the Babe between him and Gerhig? You don't think there would have been more opportunities for the Babe to hit more homeruns and draw less walks? The argument can work both ways. Also, what if the Babe had the same number of ABs as Aaron or Barry. Dude would be in the 800 HR department...no question.

Speaking of, while I was looking up info on Tyrus Raymond Cobb last night, and the arguments for and against his utter bastardy (frankly, I think both of them -- Ty and George Herman -- were black. Those two fought too hard when the n-bomb was used against both of them; I also think Ty wasn't the most evil dude in baseball, he liked folks to think he was), I came across some message board dude who actually did the math regarding Negro Leaguers and White Ball Leaguers:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/archive/i ... 39148.html

Bench 502-01-2006, 09:47 PM
I’ve read in a few sources where Negro Leaguers beat Major Leaguers 60-65% of the time they played each other. Some people interpret this to mean that blacks tried harder in inter-league exhibition games, or else major leaguer teams consisted of rag-tag combinations of assorted players playing out of position. And some have interpreted this to mean that Negro League teams were better than the Major Leaguers. In my opinion, all things being equal if teams from one league are winning 60+% of the games versus teams from another league, I would argue that the former is a stronger league than the latter.

I decided to gather as much info as I could find and interpret the data available. So I input all of the games listed in John Holway’s “Complete Book of Baseball’s Negro Leagues” into a spreadsheet. I also found several games on ProQuest that were not listed in his book and got all of the games from Bob Feller’s barnstorming from the book by John Sickels. I kept track of the dates, teams, scores, number of major leaguer position players, and number of major league pitchers. Most of the games from Holway's book are based upon games in the East and Midwest. Games from the California Winter League are not included.

Holway states in his book that black big leaguers won 57.1% of the games against white major leaguers. He credits Cuban teams, which usually consisted of several players from the Negro Leagues, with having a 43.5% winning percentage versus white major leaguers. I know there’s been other research but I think that Holway’s information is the source of the idea that Negro League teams won most of the inter-league match-ups.

Holway states that he considers a team to be a “big league” team if they have five or more white major leaguers - including the pitcher. Looking at the data, one of the biggest variables that relates to the won/lost records of games between Major League vs. Negro League is the number of major leaguers present on the team. Another variable is whether the major league team consists of players from the same team versus a mix of players from multiple teams.

Here is what the data shows in games between teams from both leagues involving a major league pitcher. The number of non-pitchers is listed in parentheses after the major league team. I broke it down into 3 levels. Major league pitcher plus zero to three position players. Major league pitchers plus 4 to 6 position players and major league pitchers plus 7 or more position players. Won Lost is indicated by the record of Negro League teams. Ties counted as 0.5 wins. Games included are between 1902 – 1946. “All Star” teams consists of major leaguers from multiple teams. “Major League Team” is a team with all or most of the players from the same team.

Negro League Teams vs. Major League “All Stars” (0-3)
36 - 12 (.750)

Negro League Teams vs. Major League “All Stars” (4-6)
23 - 15 (.605)

Negro League Teams vs. Major League “All Stars” (7+)
41 – 49 (.456)


Negro League Teams vs. Major League Team (4-6)
9 - 5 (.643)

Negro League Teams vs. Major League Team (7+)
23 - 29 (.442)


Total

Negro League vs. Major Leaguers (4-6)
32 – 20 (.615)
Negro League vs. Major Leaguers (7+)
64 – 78 (.451)

My interpretation of this data is that Negro League teams were very strong in comparison to Major Leaguers teams. Negro League teams overmatched teams of a few major leaguers playing with minor leaguers winning 75% of the games. Playing against teams with 5-7 major leaguers, the Negro league teams still won over 60% of the games. Against nearly full to full major league teams, the Negro League teams won 45% of the games. I think this shows the strength of the Negro League teams. They were extremely competitive in games against Major Leaguers. At the same time, it also shows the strength of the Major League teams. When complete or nearly complete ML teams played against Negro League teams they were the stronger league by this measure.

Another way to measure the quality of the leagues is to compare their records versus common competition. Major leaguers as well as Negro Leaguers often played against Cuban teams. Here is a record of the games by Negro League and Major League Teams against Cuban teams when they played during a similar span of time:

Major Leaguers record versus Cuba from 1908 – 1921
92 – 61 (.601)

Negro League Teams versus Cuba from 1903 – 1925
65 – 71 (.478)

The Major League teams were clearly superior to the Negro League teams in their performance versus Cuban teams. What I take from this is that the Cuban teams are very strong. The Negro League was obviously a very powerful league. I think that several NL teams could have competed in the Major leagues. But this data shows me that the Major Leagues were clearly stronger and I think that the idea that black teams routinely beat Major League teams comes down to an interpretation of the data. If you take a loose interpretation of “big league” team, then that’s a true statement. I don’t think that there is a need to make a loose definition just to make the point that the Negro League teams were strong. The evidence shows that they were a “Major League” even while measuring them against a more reasonable definition of “big league” team.

Your opinion of Bench's numbers and conclusions may vary. Frankly, I think homie didn't like the slice of cake originally served up, so he dug up more data to get the slice he wanted to eat. But who knows.

Fact of the matter is, every source I read last night says that the white players overwhelmingly wanted integration. The biggest number I saw was 70%. Several of the owners wanted to integrate as well. Too many of the other owners used southern racism -- yeah, I know, how fucked up is that to use that, is there such a thing as a white race card, since race card around here automatically refers to blacks? -- as an excuse not to do it. I'm not sure what Kennesaw Landis' issue was, and why folks had to wait until he was dead to do what they wanted to do all along. I'll also have to dig up some of the quotes from white players regarding Negro Leaguers.*** It's telling. The white players knew the league was watered down. The only white players fighting integration were those who didn't want to be personally shown up. They suffered from the same disease many accuse afflicting NBAers, of excessive 'me-ism', except their me-ism fucked up the game.

It was also cool to find out that black women could perform on Negro League teams.


***here we go. This is the second and third saddest ones I could find are:
Dizzy Dean on Satchel Paige and the Negro Leaguers: "But I saw all them fellows but Matty and Johnson and know who's the best pitcher I ever saw, and it's old Satchel Paige, that big lanky colored boy. Say, I was pretty fast back in 1933 and '34, and you know my fastball looks like a change of pace alongside that little pistol bullet old Satchel shoots up to the plate. I really know something about it because for four, five years, I toured around at the end of the season with all-star teams and I saw plenty of ol' Satch. He sure is a pistol. It's too bad those colored boys don't play in the big leagues because they've got some great ballplayers. Anyway, that skinny old Satchel Paige with those long arms is my idea of the pitcher with the greatest stuff I ever saw."

Walter Johnson on Josh Gibson: "There is a catcher that any big league club would like to buy for two-hundred thousand dollars. He can do everything. He hits the ball a mile, catches so easily he might as well be in a rocking chair, throws like a bullet. Bill Dickey isn't as good a catcher. Too bad this Gibson is a colored fellow."

The white players knew. They knew. I wonder how much was bigotry and how much was stone cold fear of being shown up.





The saddest quote, though, is this one:

The Giants and the Color Barrier

"Get that mvscal off the field!" With that statement Cap Anson set down the Color Barrier that would last for 60 years. Anson was one of the most popular baseball players of the 1800's, and he was also quite a bigot. His infamous statement was uttered in 1887 when he found that the International League team he was facing in an exhibition featured George Stovey and Fleet Walker, two black men. Stovey and Walker were removed from play, and that same day the owners of the International League decided not to hire any more black players. This "Gentleman's Agreement" spread throughout white organized baseball. While African- Americans could not play in either the major or minor leagues, they still played baseball. The relationship between the New York Giants and the Negro Leagues has a very interesting history. It involves the Giants' greatest manager, riots, no-hitters and Hall of Famers.

...

One of the uglier incidents between the Giants and Negro Leaguers occurred in 1912... The first problem came when the Giants' only pitcher refused to take the mound. According to the New York Times, "The only pitcher taken along was Louis Drucke, who comes from Texas. Drucke flatly refused to play against the colored team. All sorts of arguments were brought to bear, and Drucke finally consented to pitch if he was announced as 'Pitcher O'Brien' instead of Drucke." .... To put [the entire game, the white pitcher's attempts to cheat and the riot that followed] into its proper historical perspective, this game occurred roughly a week after Ty Cobb went up into the stand to beat up a fan who had no hands. Cobb brutalized the man and was suspended by the American League. The Detroit Tigers went on a strike in support of Cobb and the American League lifted the suspension. The fan's sin? He had called Ty Cobb a "half-mvscal."

....After the success of early black teams such as the Lincoln Giants, Giants became a code word for black teams. Newspapers of the day wouldn't print pictures of black men, but if a reader saw a team named the Giants coming to town, then he or she would know that if was a black team.....

...Eventually Commissioner Kennesaw Mountain Landis grew weary of seeing white teams getting beaten by their black competition. He ruled that when major leaguers played in exhibitions, no more than three players from one team may play. In this way black teams could not claim that they had defeated an intact major league franchise.

What's this have to do with Barry? Barry shouldn't have an asterisk next to his accomplishment -- just like Roger Maris shouldn't have. Plain and simple. He reached his achievement, let him bask in it. It doesn't take away from the Babe reaching it (officially) first.

It's like folks were asking talking about Mark McGwire versus Barry Bonds. Why does Barry get folks so het up, but Mark doesn't engender half the animosity? Let Barry have his little record. Then someone will come along to beat him (somebody mentioned Alex Rodriguez last night). And then everybody can have a good laugh because hallowed Babe Ruth is just another mulatto, anyway.

[Rich Fader]

I think we all agree that the best Negro Leaguers would have been at least as good as the best of the white Show, if not better. But with all due respect, not that much better. It would have made the game more interesting, maybe the black guys would have edged the white guys here and there, but it's by no means certain (just for the most relevant example) that we still wouldn't have been talking about the Babe being the guy the Hammer had to beat.

Barring the Negro Leaguers from the mainstream Show, as much of a shame as it was, simply was not cheating in the way that roiding up is.

WAR the guys who did it the right way. Especially the Babe. Any knucklehead can crush the ball on the juice. That guy did it on a diet of steak, potatoes, bourbon and hookers. RACK.

[Kierland]

Comparing one era against another is meaningless anyway, in any sport. Jim Brown wouldn't have been able to run over today's defensive linemen, Wilt Chamberlin wouldn't have been able to score 100 against today's centers.

The record books are still there right? Putting an * next to Bonds has been discussed in this thread. My point was that is was unfair to do it to Bonds for reason "A" (not being even charged with anything) and not to Ruth for reason "B." You might not agree which my stance but calling it "comparing one era against another" is a tad disingenuous.

(I would add an insult here but I know nothing personal about you, {except that you seem to have trouble following a simple argument} maybe Mr. Chan can fill me in...)

Your speculate that facing negro pitchers would affect Ruth's numbers.

Yes and No.

First the No. I shouldn’t have to defend the * argument for Ruth at all. It should be self-evident that leaving people out and then somehow calling it fair is stupid, but you married a horse apparently so you could very well BE stupid. (Am I doing this right Smackie?)

That my be the case, but only if the level of pitching was as good (or better) as it was in the majors at the time.

Ok now the Yes. Personally I think this is also self-evident. Let’s take Jackie Robinson since he was first. He hit what? (Googles Jackie Robinson’s stats) .297 with 12 dings in ’47. It is fair to say he replaced someone who hit less than .297 so somebody’s ERA went up and if it works for ERA why not Home Runs?

Since the Negro Leagues started in 1920 and their pitchers were facing a much smaller talent pool in mostly unorganized barnstorming sessions prior to that, I would doubt many black pitchers would make a major league roster on talent alone.

Let me put this into terms that you might be able to understand better. You are married to a horse right? Let’s say she was Winning Colors and not some hag. If you pull her out because of her race or gender or the like 49’er gets the Roses. Fair? I think not.

At least in the era that Ruth played in, just because they were segregated doesn't mean they were better. Your arguement is flawed at best.

They were humans. They should have been given a chance.

Actually you didn't present an argument. You just threw out some revisionist PC retoric that makes no sense whatsoever.

…And PC is code for what?

Hell, your point is a valid as giving Hank an * because he saw more pitches over the middle because pitchers didn't want throw inside and bean him on the lips.

Actually I was equating segregation with cheating, but you go right ahead a post a Racist Strawman.

It seems we're in violent agreement.

Great.

But another element of this board is that once a reputation or label is applied, it's there forever. I've learned to live with it.

So I am some Chris Rock wanna be who knows nothing about the military? Ouch!

[Risa]

WAR the guys who did it the right way. Especially the Babe. Any knucklehead can crush the ball on the juice. That guy did it on a diet of steak, potatoes, bourbon and hookers. RACK.

The Babe's hookers were infamously black. That's a no-no around these parts. The Babe may not have pulled a knife out on a man in a fight (who would he have thought he was? a mexican? Ty Cobb?), but he did pull Ron Artests and charge the stands, and beat people up who were talking trash. Why is the Babe a saint, untouchable, and nobody else can be?

Dude wasn't a saint -- and Ty Cobb not being a saint and still being in the Hall of Fame is proof sainthood and likeability is irrelevant to enshrinement and celebration -- so why force Barry Bonds to be? If what Barry was juicing on was legal at the time, it's no big deal. If Barry hasn't tested positive, it shouldn't be allowed to be a big deal.

Like somebody else said at sports illustrated, taking steroids won't automatically make you knock homers out of the park. There has to be talent and strength already there.

We don't know what kind of 'enhancements' they were taking back then, anyway. The testing wasn't there like it is now. And the fact that the league was watered down due to segregation is huge, and should not be dismissed. Let Barry have his record, without the asterisk.

[Kierland]

Barring the Negro Leaguers from the mainstream Show, as much of a shame as it was, simply was not cheating in the way that roiding up is.

It was worse. One you could get caught at.

[Risa]

Dude wasn't a saint -- and Ty Cobb not being a saint and still being in the Hall of Fame is proof sainthood and likeability is irrelevant to enshrinement and celebration -- so why force Barry Bonds to be? If what Barry was juicing on was legal at the time, it's no big deal. If Barry hasn't tested positive, it shouldn't be allowed to be a big deal.

Ruth and Cobb didn't cheat, you fucking tard.

Ruth had a stadium designed specifically for him and to facilitate ease of homering. From what I heard, a long time ago.

http://frankslog.com/baseballs-greatest-cheaters/

The most notable offenders and cheating title holders would be: John McGraw, Gaylord Perry, Ty Cobb, Mike Scott, Ken Hrbeck, Joe Niekro, Pete Rose, and Albert Belle. Later, and to add some variety to this interesting topic, one of the many baseball scandals include the 1919 Chicago White Sox sellout.

But then he mentions Ty sharpening his spikes, which I think is a myth. But I don't know. Reading him, last night, Ty Cobb looks like a psych out artist of Muhammed Ali proportions and a trash talker as great as Larry Bird.... he was just dirtier and cruder than either of these men. Ty knew how to fuck with people's heads. Ty's problem is that he let others fuck with his own.

Wasn't Ty involved in some cheating scandal which Landis cleared him and the other dude of, though?

[Mike Backer]

I have no problem with giving Barry an * if there is also one next to Ruth's name.
Segregation made it possible for Ruth to hit silly numbers, there is no way he would have hit those numbers if there was fair competition, and fair competition is what most people bitch about when they bring up the * argument when talking about Bonds.

You are a god damned idiot.

Taking a page out of Chris Rock's theory, Kierland? Okay. What if there were blacks in baseball back then? I bet I can argue the same point about lineup protection for Ruth. What if the Yankees acquired someone similar to Josh Gibson during the 1920's and you stuck the Babe between him and Gerhig? You don't think there would have been more opportunities for the Babe to hit more homeruns and draw less walks? The argument can work both ways. Also, what if the Babe had the same number of ABs as Aaron or Barry. Dude would be in the 800 HR department...no question.

Well said.

[Smackie Chan]

But another element of this board is that once a reputation or label is applied, it's there forever. I've learned to live with it.

So I am some Chris Rock wanna be who knows nothing about the military? Ouch!

I was referring to the stoner blast, but I think you knew that. As far as any reputation you may believe you have, I think the jury is still out for most, an exception being mvscal. To him, you're just a dipshit. But then again, we all are to him, so I wouldn't sweat it.

[Risa]

Since the Negro Leagues started in 1920 and their pitchers were facing a much smaller talent pool in mostly unorganized barnstorming sessions prior to that,

That's bullshit.

The Negro Leagues didn't exist because guys who weren't as talented as the majors could still make money in a minors. The Negro Leagues existed because guys who were just as talented as (or more talented than) their white and latino contemporaries were barred from playing in the majors. That's a profound difference, and it should never be forgotten.

The Negro Leagues was not a minor league or an alternate league (a la the XFL) or otherwise secondary league; it was the only place blacks could play, if they could not pass as white or latino, the game they loved. Separate but equal -- except nothing was equal at all.

Educate yourself, RJack. The only knock against the Negro League versus the White Ball League is that the Negro League didn't have the anal record keeping (or rather, the central clearing house of record keeping) White Ball League did. That is not the same as saying the Negro Leagues were unorganized or less talented. White Ball League is built upon a foundation of meticulous record keeping. White Ball League's record keeping made sure to exclude an entire race's accomplishments from that record keeping.

Chris Rock's point about Satchel Paige's accomplishments past his prime in an integrated league should NOT be taken lightly. Neither should white players pros and cons about playing against their own countrymen of a different skin. The wheelchair was hyperbole. His continuing to be a presence past his prime in an integrated league, is not.

There should indeed be asterisks next to all accomplishments made prior to integration, just to ensure that no one forgets under what conditions those accomplishments were made. The line before and after integration should always be mentioned. Segregated baseball is not and can never be the same game as integrated baseball. We need to remember.

I would doubt many black pitchers would make a major league roster on talent alone.

What's to doubt? It's an established fact that black pitchers couldn't make a major league roster on talent alone........ because the league was segregated. What's so difficult to acknowledge about that, that you seem to forget that in using the term 'doubt'?

They'd have to be white or latino, or pretend to be white or latino, in order to make a major league roster, all because of Cap Anson being a fearful fool and Kennesaw Mountain Landis being another fearful fool.

Why are y'all fighting Kierland on this?

[Adelpiero]

buwahahahaha talk about before and after

the only thing bigger than bonds head is Risa waist size.

[War Wagon]

Satch may have looked good mowing down the no-names of the Negro Leagues but might have had a bit more trouble doing the same against the Yanks' murderers row. You can make the bullshit Chris Rock argument, or come up with some other weak ass angle, but the truth is.....we'll never know what might have been. It's an injustice and a shame that the very best players of that era were not all playing in the major leagues, and a further injustice that blacks had to form a race based league, but we cannot change history. Nor can we accurately speculate as to "what if" they had been allowed to play as it pertains to baseball records because NO ARGUMENT will hold water. Satch might have dominated Ruth....or maybe the Babe would have had another 20 dingers if he'd had the opportunity to hit off him. It's a shame that the country never got to see that matchup.

Disagree strongly, Mace. Paige did get to match-up against Major Leaguers... when he was 42 years old.

The Indians were in a heated pennant race on August 20, 1948. Coming into the game against the White Sox, Bob Lemon, Gene Bearden and Sam Zoldak had thrown shutouts to run up a thirty-inning scoreless streak, eleven shy of the big league record. 201,829 people had come to see his last three starts. For this game in Cleveland, 78,382 people came to see Paige, a full 6,000 more people than when he last broke the night attendance record. Paige went the distance, giving up two singles and one double for his second consecutive three hit shutout. At that point in the season, Paige was 5-1 with an astoundingly low 1.33 ERA. He made one appearance in the 1948 World Series. He pitched for two-thirds of an inning in Game Two while the Indians were trailing the Boston Braves, giving up a sacrifice fly to Warren Spahn, got called for a balk and struck out Tommy Holmes. The Indians ended up winning the series in six games. Paige ended the year with a 6-1 record with a 2.48 ERA, 2 shutouts, 43 strikeouts, 22 walks and 61 base hits allowed in 72 2/3 innings.

In his prime, I reckon he would have aquitted himself quite well against the Bronx Bombers.

[War Wagon]

One thing that I do know......pitching 2/3 of an inning and giving up a run scoring sac fly to a pitcher, being called for a balk, and striking out Tommy Holmes (he ain't Babe Ruth) does NOT automatically qualify someone for enshrinement in the HOF (nor do his mediocre stats at age 42).

Huh? You took that one innocuous blurb about his 1 WS appearance and ran with it.

Satch IS in the HOF. The 1st black player, elected in 1972.

Mediocre stats? If a 6-1 record and 2.48 ERA are mediocre, I sure wish the Royals pitchers (and you the Cubbies) had such mediocre numbers.

Frankly Mace, being the astute baseball historian and aficianado that I know you to be, I'm quite surprised at your dismissive attitude towards the Negro Leagues. During those years, everyone knew the quality baseball being played at that level. The fans, the media, and especially the MLB players themselves, considered that to be a good measuring stick.

I came across one story about how in 1936 a young Joe DiMaggio faced Satch in a minor league game and went 1 for 4. The New York papers were suitably impressed, reporting that since Joe managed to get one hit off of Satchell motherfucking Paige, he was therefore obviously ready for the Bigs.

Since there's no disguising bad baseball and good baseball is also easily recognized, Mace, this isn't an apples and oranges argument.

What was the argument, again?

I don't doubt that Satch was a great pitcher...or maybe even the best of all time...but I know that he didn't get a chance to prove it in the big leagues and, for that reason, we will never really know how great he might have been. That's our loss.

True enough. I'll say this, though. If it hadn't been for Satchell Paige doing what he'd been doing for 20 years, Jackie Robinson wouldn't have been the first to break the color barrier. It might have been another 10 years before someone got that chance.

[Risa]

My claim is simply that not ALL of the players in the Negro leagues were of major league talent.

And word on the street is that not everyone who is in the Hall of Fame deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. Word on the street is that the Hall is top heavy with Yankees and Dodgers; with old men voting in their buddies, dugout and drinking, no matter how statistically mediocre in comparison to other players from 'lesser' white teams, instead of looking at the bigger picture.

Has the moratorium on adding additional Negro Leaguers to the Hall of Fame been lifted, yet?

Mace, it does indeed work both ways: Not all the white and latino players in the White Ball League would have been in the league in the first place, if Cap Anson hadn't been a whiny bitch about facing a black man. Why say that the 'what ifs' are good enough to demote the Negro League, but are not good enough to demote the White Ball League?

What you fail to see is that you have changed the rules, Mace. If the Negro Leagues aren't impressive enough for you, because their stat-keeping and the games they had to play because segregation was in full force aren't White Ball League; then how can the White Ball League be impressive, itself, to you? The White Ball League intentionally removed from consideration all players of a specific race, such that black players had to deny that they were black in order to play the Official (tm) American Pasttime.

The 'what ifs' extend to the White Ball League. The White Ball League only compares itself to itself. The snake feeds upon itself. The asterisk belongs to segregated baseball.

Why must the Negro League -- again, a League which existed out of cultural necessity, not out of a lower level of play -- be held down, so that the White Ball League may be held up on a pedestal, untouchable?

Baseball that is not integrated, is not baseball. It is not the highest competition baseball had to offer. That higher competition came when both White Ball and Negro Leagues were able to come on the field together; but because of people like Anson and Kennesaw Mountain Landis, Jackie Robinson had to be handpicked to endure the abuse and taunts of racist so-called fans in order to officially integrate baseball.

Was there ever a World Series of Baseball between the best of White Ball and the best of Negro?

Give the asterisk to all pre-integration baseball stats. It will make the breaking of those records that much sweeter. And it really is no big deal to acknowledge the state of America, and of America's game, in so doing --

unless, folks want to forget.

[War Wagon]

Everything discussed in this thread on this topic is nothing more than speculation and bullshit......and a waste of time.....except that it's a discussion about baseball and well worth my time. :)

Sorta. It is speculation, but it's not bullshit. Trying to ascertain where the Negro leaguers would've rated is a worthy endeavor.

I totally respect the baseball accomplishments of Satchel Paige and appreciate all that he and the other negro league players had to overcome in their quest to become major league players, but I'm not inclined to demean the accomplishments of someone like Babe Ruth to elevate the what might have beens of the black players of that era.

"quest to become MLB players"?

C'mon, Mace. They had their own league, and they were pretty damn good. Most of 'em never even dreamed of playing in the majors, much less made it a "quest".

And I'm not demeaning Ruth or anyone else from that era. Far from it. Ruth is a baseball God as far as I'm concerned.

In other news, Tom Glavine got his 300th win tonite, a most Rackable accomplishment. I'm much more impressed with that than I am Barry Bonds 'roided up homerun totals.

And lastly, if Satch had pitched in the majors, he would have easily won 500 games. Put that in your pipe and inhale it. :wink:

[BSmack]

And lastly, if Satch had pitched in the majors, he would have easily won 500 games. Put that in your pipe and inhale it. :wink:

Maybe if he was the only Negro Leaguer called up to the bigs for like 25 years.

[Jerkovich]

I have to laugh at dumb fucks that get all twisted up over the asinine antics of baseball. Get a freaken life dweebs.

Oh, and on Babe Ruth, sure, if a ni55er was on the mound he would have foiled Ruth. Not because of his superior pitching, but because Ruth would have been nauseated to the point of puking. :P

[Russ from SacTown]

Why could someone hit more home runs in this era versus prior eras?

Could be something to do with having:

• Players now have strength and conditioning coaches
• Players are conditioning for 12 months
• Better equipment (maple bats, etc.)
• Over the counter "bulk up" goodies
• Smaller ballparks (exceptions are AT&T, Petco, etc.)
• Diluted pitching due to expansion, some pitchers who should be in AAA or out of baseball all together are on MLB rosters.
• Oh and the league still is not testing for HGH, just steriods and amphetamines.