Asiana Airways plane crashes while landing at SFO

Left Seater · Post by **Left Seater** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:58 pm

Thoughts and prayers to all involved.

Very early but it looks like pilot error. They landed short and hit the rock breakwall which broke off the tail and left a debris trail across the overrun area. Maybe a high angle of attack as if they realized to late and tried to go around.

The good news is door 5L and 5R are both open and intact. The rear pressure bulkhead is visible and broken but that means the break happened behind the seating area including the waitresses. Unless they were killed by G forces there shouldn't be many fatalities.

For LTS to chew on:

CNN has a witness that says the plane cartwheeled across the ground.

Another on CNN says the wings broke off.

A third says the wheels slipped and the plane slid backwards towards the water.

Clearly none of those things happened, yet they still saw what they saw.

R-Jack · Post by **R-Jack** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:01 pm

So far it sounds like no fatalities. Pretty lucky if true.

My girlfriend was out at candlestick doing doing one of those run or dye 5k's. She got out befor traffic got shitty.

The Seer · Post by **The Seer** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:03 pm

They fly like they drive.....

BarFlie · Post by **BarFlie** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:06 pm

I just heard everyone got off safely. If true that's a freakin miracle from the looks of the plane.

R-Jack · Post by **R-Jack** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:08 pm

The Seer wrote:They fly like they drive.....

Left Seater · Post by **Left Seater** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:09 pm

Lots of British, Aussie and Americans fly for them as well. One issue the Korean culture has though is they don't challenge authority. So often the guy in the right seat will not say a damn thing while Left seat does stupid things.

Left Seater · Post by **Left Seater** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:16 pm

http://www.liveatc.net has the tower audio of the controller working arrivals on 28L.

Right hand side of page is the link to another page in the twitter feeds.

You can here United holding short on that runway, other flights going around, one going to San Jose, etc. You can also hear an Asian voice from Asiana 214 requesting crash vehicles.

M2 · Post by M2 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:22 pm

The reports here in the Bay Area... are 2 people are dead.

I've actually flown on this airline many times during my travels to and from Kathmandu, Nepal.

Great airline from my point of view, just a terrible accident.

Left Seater · Post by **Left Seater** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:28 pm

M2, is that on a local station? None of the national stations are reporting that.

Also, the pilot had the bird 40 feet right of center as well as a few hundred feet short of the displaced threshold.

M2 · Post by M2 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:28 pm

I keep hearing from the national news that the weather conditions are perfect here ???

WTF ?

It's windy as hell here today !

Best to get your news from local sources.

M2 · Post by M2 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:32 pm

Left Seater wrote:M2, is that on a local station? None of the national stations are reporting that.

Local. It seems the national news is spending time talking to people in London and elsewhere. Not the same as what is being reported here. Who knows what is true.

I can tell you it's windy as hell here today and not ideal conditions whatsoever, and I'm sure R-Jack can back me on that.

Left Seater · Post by **Left Seater** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:35 pm

Reports on CNN say winds were 7 mph from the northwest at the time of the crash. That seems consistent with the smoke seen in the YouTube video. Wind shouldn't be an issue.

Left Seater · Post by **Left Seater** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:39 pm

http://soberbuildengineer-com.s3.amazon ... -Crash.mp3

Better link to ATC feed.

M2 · Post by M2 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:42 pm

Left Seater wrote:Reports on CNN say winds were 7 mph from the northwest at the time of the crash.

Yeah, if you're locked in an underground silo.

I'd say it's about 25 mph. with gusts up to 35 45 mph.

SFO is one of the windiest places in the bay area...

So, take it for what it's worth.

Left Seater · Post by **Left Seater** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:43 pm

M2, just heard winds were much higher in other areas of the Bay Area, but damn near perfect conditions at the time of the crash.

R-Jack · Post by **R-Jack** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:52 pm

Pretty fucking windy in Marin today. I don't doubt that is was blowing hard out there at SFO around 11:30. Didn't think it was Rack Fu grass clippings levels of detrimental though.

Left Seater · Post by **Left Seater** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:00 pm

just a theory of mine but maybe he stalled it and that is why was right of the centerline, short and then spun at least 360 degrees once on the ground.

M2, just heard two dead as well. Smoke and burns as the cause.

M2 · Post by M2 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:04 pm

Left Seater wrote:M2, just heard winds were much higher in other areas of the Bay Area, but damn near perfect conditions at the time of the crash.

Anything is possible... hell, it was 111 degrees in one town in the east bay out near Brentwood or somewhere and 25 miles away in Pacifica, it was 58 degrees earlier this week.

I just find it hard to believe there was no wind out there, just south of "the stick". I've never seen it not windy. But, who knows. Could have been a not so freaky(normal there) gust of wind that caused it to crash land.

Bobby42 · Post by **Bobby42** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:20 pm

FAA press briefing coming up. Let's see how CNN/FOX twist & turn on that.

B42

M2 · Post by M2 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:23 pm

Smoke blowing sideways... indicates it was pretty windy out there.

R-Jack · Post by **R-Jack** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:38 pm

Could be wind. Could be stupidity. Could be something else. We're all pretty much, including Lefty to a degree, armchair QBs at this point. All that can be certain is everyone on board is glad they aren't AP.

Left Seater · Post by **Left Seater** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:38 pm

M2,

Tend to use smoke rising at a 45 degree angle to estimate wind speed as 10 mph.

At 20 mph smoke leaving a stack will appear to travel almost horizontal.

Left Seater · Post by **Left Seater** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:40 pm

Totally agree R-Jack, that is why the after thoughts and prayers the next thing I said was it is very early. By that I meant we don't know shit.

Left Seater · Post by **Left Seater** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:12 pm

Not really. That would never work.

Really starting to wonder if he stalled it. Notice that it shows he was climbing at 120 ft/min as well.

Also if you listen to the ATC he never declared any emergency. Nor notified of a bird strike, etc.

Just as an FYI, flight aware is great, but it isn't real time data and can estimate certain parameters too. It is awesome but the public version isn't as accurate as the private version. Still freaking scary to think about.

Derron · Post by **Derron** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:27 pm

Left Seater wrote:Lots of British, Aussie and Americans fly for them as well. One issue the Korean culture has though is they don't challenge authority. So often the guy in the right seat will not say a damn thing while Left seat does stupid things.

Minor information like glide path, airspeed, center line alignment, like he needed to be told.

Derron · Post by **Derron** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:34 pm

Left Seater wrote:
Really starting to wonder if he stalled it. Notice that it shows he was climbing at 120 ft/min as well.

I was wanting to think that as well. Stalled it fairly close to the ground, tearing less shit up. I think he must have known he was in trouble 1/2 mile out at least. The data recorder will show if he tried to spool it up any prior to impact. That last mile of final will have a lot to do with it as well.

Screw_Michigan · Post by **Screw_Michigan** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:44 pm

I know one thing, why don't we call AP to get his thoughts on the situation?

Sincerely,

Absolutely no one

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:49 pm

How the fukk could he have stalled it?

Do they land them close enough to stall speed to have it be possible if there is something like a big sudden wind direction change?

You would think that even a third world airline would have some pretty heavily experienced pilot driving something that big.

Derron · Post by **Derron** » Sun Jul 07, 2013 12:02 am

smackaholic wrote:How the fukk could he have stalled it?

Do they land them close enough to stall speed to have it be possible if there is something like a big sudden wind direction change?

You would think that even a third world airline would have some pretty heavily experienced pilot driving something that big.

Ahhh by letting his airspeed drop too low. They are not landed that close, but if he got that close to stall speed, there is a lot of sensory input in the cockpit...you know voices, horns, alarms.....as you approach stall speed, your control inputs start to become somewhat unstable, and you have a very short time frame to make some good shit happen in.

As far as wind goes, and that speed will be easily documented later on, it is going to take one hell of a gust to affect a triple 7 IF is is properly configured when it encounters the wind gust to the point of stalling it, unless he was right on the edge for that anyway.

Even the zips would have experience and high time flying the 777. I think they will have 2 flight crews on that run also ?

It is so good to know that all these zips I hear on the radio all day long flying out over my place in the "west practice area" out of KHIO flight school. You can always tell the new ones. " Tessna fa zaro pa pa, treeousand weth pac ice ara, shalls. "

War Wagon · Post by **War Wagon** » Sun Jul 07, 2013 12:56 am

R-Jack wrote:All that can be certain is everyone on board is glad they aren't AP.

well played.

Atomic Punk · Post by **Atomic Punk** » Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:25 am

War Wagon wrote:
R-Jack wrote:All that can be certain is everyone on board is glad they aren't AP.

well played.

What a douche bag you are. You might as well be neutered like Screwey.

Pilot error, plain and simple.

Left Seater · Post by **Left Seater** » Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:34 am

smackaholic wrote:How the fukk could he have stalled it?

Do they land them close enough to stall speed to have it be possible if there is something like a big sudden wind direction change?

You would think that even a third world airline would have some pretty heavily experienced pilot driving something that big.

How could he have stalled it? It would have taken a shit ton of work, but it can be done. It might start with him hand flying the approach, turned off the warnings about airspeed and position on the glide slope, then tried to show off by greasing it on. Dude prolly got to low to quick and then brought the nose up to try to slow the sink rate. The longer he held the nose up with the thrust low the closer he moves to a stall. But the closer he got to a stall the plane sure would have let him know, stick shaker, verbal warnings, horns, etc.

Stall speed depends on how the plane is configured, direction and speed of the wind, thrust settings, just to name a few. However the stall speed is well above the normal landing speed and pilots practice in the simulator yearly for sudden wind speed and direction changes. There is a weather event called wind sheer in which at one second you have wind on the nose and the next second you have wind on the tail. Standard practice is to go to takeoff setting on the throttles and execute a go around.

Yes, even in S Korea, the pilots flying that bird would have some pretty serious hours.

Dr_Phibes · Post by **Dr_Phibes** » Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:30 am

Left Seater wrote: How could he have stalled it? It would have taken a shit ton of work, but it can be done.

Air France, 447

The pilots did not read out the available data (vertical velocity, altitude, etc.).
The stall warning sounded continuously for 54 seconds.
The pilots did not comment on the stall warnings and apparently did not realize that the aircraft was stalled.

Atomic Punk · Post by **Atomic Punk** » Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:41 am

I'm letting this softball go to the aviation "experts" here. "Well Jay, I guess you can say they were off glide"slope."

smackaholic · Post by **smackaholic** » Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:35 pm

Atomic Punk wrote:I'm letting this softball go to the aviation "experts" here. "Well Jay, I guess you can say they were off glide"slope."

yeah, as in dudes paid to fly......in 2013, such as lefty.

Is it possible that some dumbfukk forgot to deploy the flaps? I would guess that the 777's cockpit warning system would have a full marching band playing the "you forgot to put out the flaps, asshole" warning at a few thousand feet of altitude.

So, does this qualify as a commercial airline crash? The US has been on one hell of a good run since that plane crashed on take off out of jfk right after 9-11.

Left Seater · Post by **Left Seater** » Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:23 pm

New info I heard this morning says runway 28L was available for visual approaches only. No glide slope or other info was available. Not that that should have made any difference, as those guys hand fly it all the time.

Smacky, the flaps appear to be deployed in the photos we have seen on tv. Granted I have no idea how much flap he had out or what is recommended or required for the conditions. But unless he deployed the flaps as they were skidding across the ground he did have some flaps out. But also keep in mind our resident expert on all things aviation LTS, said a plane can't fly close to the ground with its flaps deployed or it will immediately crash. So maybe he did deploy the flaps and therefore crashed.

Yes this counts as a crash. There have been plenty of crashes and other incidents since the AA A300 crash. There was a Delta commuter jet taking off from Lexington that used the wrong runway and killed most if not all on board. There was the Continental 737 take off issue in Denver where everyone survived. There was an AA 737 that ran off the runway in Kingston. There was a sea plane that crashed off Miami Beach killing 20. There were two Fed Ex crashes and one UPS. And those were just off the top of my head.

Atomic Punk · Post by **Atomic Punk** » Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:52 pm

smackaholic wrote: Is it possible that some dumbfukk forgot to deploy the flaps? I would guess that the 777's cockpit warning system would have a full marching band playing the "you forgot to put out the flaps, asshole" warning at a few thousand feet of altitude.

So, does this qualify as a commercial airline crash? The US has been on one hell of a good run since that plane crashed on take off out of jfk right after 9-11.

If you are looking to take the ankle biter award from a shit troll that only follows me, then you win. See the pictures from the crash? Do you know what "flaps" are except between your legs? Flaps were down you fucking idiot. I'm guessing they were too far behind the aircraft and chopped the throttles so they didn't have to waive off. Flight data recorder will tell the story. Probably tried to spool the engines up at the last minute. The VSI data might help, but this is speculation. Those are very safe and heavy aircraft and yes, I've flown as a passenger from New York JFK to Rome Italy and I don't remember even hearing the engines other than barely on takeoff while in Magnifica Class (the Italian version of Business Class).

Left Seater · Post by **Left Seater** » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:20 pm

Sure we can't just pull over when things go wrong, but that is why we have so much oversight. In some states you can renew your DL online if you haven't been in trouble with the law. I also don't see a medical exam necessary to renew a DL.

Derron · Post by **Derron** » Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:48 pm

Atomic Punk wrote: I'm guessing they were too far behind the aircraft and chopped the throttles so they didn't have to waive off.

And here is why idiots like you thankfully are NOT in the left seat today. Would you care to expound on your idea that they got behind it and just said "fuck it" and chopped it off and hoped for the best ??

Versus fire walling it (albeit too late probably) and going around....

Do you remember anything from your flight training...like worry about where you are and what you are doing 15 seconds from now ?

Derron · Post by **Derron** » Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:50 pm

Left Seater wrote:Sure we can't just pull over when things go wrong, but that is why we have so much oversight. In some states you can renew your DL online if you haven't been in trouble with the law. I also don't see a medical exam necessary to renew a DL.

Yearly exam at that too.
Checked out in type.
Yearly check rides.
Insurance reviews.

If we did that to the moronic drivers out there, half the cars would be off the road...a good thing.